Tuesday, November 18, 2008

Sins of the Past and Present

I love my country! I am not ashamed to proclaim it as the best place on earth. I am not embarrassed to boast of its great history or the many wonderful things our nation has accomplished which have made our country the desired home of so many immigrants.
We have been a role model to which many freedom desiring people have aspired to.

This does not erase the wrongs to which we have also contributed. This in no way means we as a nation do not have much of which to lament in our history. I dare say, we, having been given so much, may very well have more to regret than many others. All nations have failings. All governments tend to preserve self interest as that is the basic purpose of a national government. All government is made up of fallible humans who will and do commit errors and misjudgments and at times even knowingly side with evil in the hope of peace for the moment. History shows us this is so and we can not deny it, thus has it been, and thus shall it be as long as mere men are involved in decisions of such magnitude. Until the end of time.

When I consider the regrets we as a nation hold in regards to our internal affairs, the one which stands starkest in our collective memory is the horror of slavery. Although we certainly did not invent the institution of slavery, as it has existed since the dawn of time, and even though it is known that the African tribes themselves were slave holders, this does nothing to take away the responsibility our ancestors brought on themselves by earning their livelihood at the expense of this inhumane practice.

Our country fought this battle for centuries. Many may not realize that much of the conflict involved with the ratification of the Constitution over the pre -existing Articles of Confederation was in great part caused by this very thing. Slavery was already dividing our country and in order to maintain a United States, compromises were made.

However, as history always reveals, compromises rarely solve an issue of such magnitude for long. Skeletons will come out of the closet and confront us later if not properly dealt with now. These temporary compromises led to the Civil War. The over riding purpose of the war was to enable the states to keep their rights but was fueled by the passions of men on both sides of the slavery issue. Many a young American man went to the battleground in order that other men, black men, might be freed. This was the first necessary step towards redemption of our nation in regards to this national sin.

These brave men chose to fight and not only confronted death and war, they were going against an institution many thought was vital to the future economical stability of our country. We should all salute them for their bravery of confronting this terrible act and wiping it from our country's boundaries.

No one would be foolish enough to declare that equality was immediately granted and felt by the newly freed slaves, but it was a necessary step towards that hope. Shortly, others would take up the fight and even black people were now free to promote their own agendas and unite in this common cause which led to the civil rights movement many of us remember from our youths.

The fact is, things have changed for the better. Not just for the betterment of the black citizen, but for those of us who are identified as white. We can feel a sense of relief in knowing that what our ancestors promoted is not acceptable any longer. We can see that a black man is now our highest earthly authority. More changes on the personal level need to be made but sadly, humans tend to behave badly towards others who are different. This crosses all spectrum of race and creed. This type of prejudice is not native to the American and is practiced across the globe and has been through out all history. But here, and now,we have seen a difference and we have every right to acknowledge it as an achievement!

The second largest disgrace I would lay at the feet of our nation is the terrible treatment dealt out to the American indians. While the exploration and conquering of nations has ever been and will ever remain a necessary process in the progress of mankind, and was also practiced by the American indian, in our case, it was often done with great deception and falsehoods in regards to the American indians.

The tribes were by no means innocents that went meekly to their deaths as a lamb to the slaughter! No, these brave and noble people fought and defended their territories many times to the very last man, woman and child. They had every right to do so and they did it against great odds and most valiantly! This warrior spirit was beheld by the new Americans and became an integral part of our national character. The Englishmen beheld in the American indian societies a freedom they had never experienced in Europe and I think this observation became a mind set among the newer generations of Americans as something admirable and worth fighting for just as the indians had done.

The colonist admired the freedom of the individual as seen in the American indian. They observed among the tribes, the right of council ,where every citizen could sit at the feet of the chiefs and rulers and take part in their civil decisions. This was not the case for the average European of common ancestry. They were at the whim of their authorities, taxed and ruled without even the right of representation, for the most part.

I honestly feel that our early Americans learned this love for local politics from the tribes with which they interacted. This would explain why so many a colonist would often 'go native' and join the tribe. The lifestyle of the American indian offered more individual freedom. This would become a hallmark of the American experience.

I do not hold against our ancestors the need to conquer lands which was done through carnal warfare. That is how it is accomplished. They were fighting for their future against a people fighting back for their own future. What I do acknowledge as a national disgrace is what came later.

The time of the Indian Removal is a blight upon our history. We tricked, cheated and lied to a , by then civilized people, in order to steal their property. Plain and simple. The removal of the Cherokee tribe to Indian Territory on what became known as the Trail of Tears should be remembered with grave humility.

We must not fall into this trap of the early Americans who offered up treaties without realizing the cost in the future when the circumstances would change. The new realities of a growing nation would force them to break their word with the tribes over and over again. We must not do this yet again when confronting global situations where a present withdraw or treaty will only need be revisited later by our children. Compromising with the enemy now will not guarantee peace in the next decade.

The Civilized Nations of the American indians overcame this mistreatment in a remarkable way. A way which other peoples in other places could learn from. For the most part, the American indian, while holding to his tribal culture, learned also to identify himself as an American citizen. They became loyal to the country which behaved badly towards them.

Many have taken up arms in time of national crisis to defend our nation from external enemies even providing vital services which they alone could perform. I am reminded of the incredible skill of the indian code talkers of WWII. Even this week I read a story of a young Cherokee, an American Marine, returning from Iraq where he served our country with valor. He was welcomed home by the tribe with great honor, as should be.

Certainly, some people of the tribes have failed at overcoming the welfare mentality to which many have grown accustomed ,to their own detriment. But the many others, the ones who have united with our nation, gained an education and contributed to our society, are an example to us all.


And lastly, the next blight upon our national reputation must be the present day massacre of the unborn. The unborn is today what the black man and the indian were in times past. An inconvenience deemed expendable. A 'being' which can be removed without remorse or guilt. Even stripped of their humanity, made to be less than a person to salve our consciences as we commit atrocities upon them. Science and medicine would have us believe the unborn child is but a mass of tissue invading the mother's body. The mother, we are told, can legally exercise her right over her body and remove the unwanted child, the 'punishment' ,some have even called the unborn child. This in no way makes it true or less disturbing.

Yes, the elitist have once again convinced themselves that this is a difficulty which can be dealt with in order to make our lives easier. Though sad, they say there is no wrong in ending the life of the unborn if it is for the betterment of yourself, or necessary for meeting your own needs and even wants. If the unborn is blocking your path to success or a deterrent to your economical welfare, by all means, remove it! The unborn can be merely, wiped away.

Shamefully, we know that many a Christan Southern slave owner convinced himself that the black man was somehow less than human. The leading educators and scientist of the day declared this to be so, and who should question science? Society aided this Christian in his obvious denial of reality, by believing that due to his personal need for the free labor of the black slave, he was not guilty of an atrocity by owning another human. He patted himself on the back as only doing what was accepted by others as necessary for the country and , after all, it was legal.

How many Christian citizens of the State of Georgia allowed themselves to think that the Cherokee Nation, a civilized people who upheld the treaties they had made, needed to be removed from their ancestral lands which had been promised to them by more than one treaty? Yes, the indian needed to go, to make way for the Christian man and his family to have a better life.

Th indian needed to be sent out of sight, not to be thought of again, so that the State of Georgia could raffle off the Cherokee farms and properties to needy white families. It is what the nation needed, and once again, the Christian folk allowed themselves to consider their needs of more import than the wrong being done to another. Society told them it was for the betterment of all, perhaps the indian would suffer, but their loss would make way for the nation to gain that which could enrich them personally.

And today, I am appalled to know that many of my fellow Christians have once again allowed themselves to be convinced that voting for a pro-abortion presidential candidate was somehow acceptable. Many a Christian voter says that one should not vote for one issue. Oh, the unborn will be killed no matter, but my vote will help other causes. The Christian Obama voter has convinced himself that abortion and the unborn are not his concern because the new President has offered him something he needs, free health care, perhaps. Help on a mortgage, free college education for his own children...so a few million more babies will be murdered with out mercy in the womb. Our nation has greater needs at the moment, and so do I.

The economy is in crisis and somehow justifies the naive thought that an Obama campaign promise will fix this. Yes, he said he would appoint liberal judges who will interpret the law in such a way that will promote the slaughter of more innocents, but many a Christian voted for this man, knowing this to be so, all in the hopes that he would bring them a better personal financial situation.

They knew Obama supported partial birth abortion, which is late term torture for the 'partially born'. Piercing the head and chopping the brains of the innocent victim! But this is deemed acceptable because the elites have once again convinced us that the unborn is not a human. And to salve our seared consciences we invent reasons for voting for this butchering by declaring that an Obama presidency will stop the torture of the murdering terrorists held in Guatanamo! And Obama will free them! We are saints indeed! Forget the millions of murdered, innocent babies, we have to stop the atrocity of a terrorist possibly being water boarded!

Just as the Christians of the past had to face the reality of their personal sin in regards to the evil of slavery, the despicable treatment of the American indian, we today must come to terms with the absolute horror of abortion many of us have enabled to not only continue , but to expand in this election!

The early Christians were persecuted and even died in defense of their faith, but we... we sold our souls. And for what? Universal health care? Economic gain? Or worse yet, mere platitudes offering vague promises of 'hope' and 'change'?

47 comments:

WomanHonorThyself said...

libs dont care about slaughtering babies..as long as no animals were hurt making this film!

Father Gregori said...

Just a warning to all so-called "Christians" who voted for Obama:

"BE PREPARED, YOUR CHICKENS WILL SOON BE COMING HOME TO ROOST!"

William said...

Excellent commentary on the genocide inflicted on Native Americans. That was justified by some religious scholars (like Stephen Mansfield) as being part of god's plan. It has been termed "Manifest Destiny".

Too bad your post became irrational and emotional, ridiculously comparing abortion rights with genocide. If you really want less abortions you should know that abortions are less in countries where it is safe and legal. Making abortion illegal does nothing to prevent it, but does cause tens of thousands of deaths among women.

Read my post on this subject if you really want to know how counterproductive your arguments are regarding abortion. No one wants to see more abortions but like the so-called teen "viriginity pledges" that sound like a good idea on the surface, the reality is that those kids who take virginity pledges are 4 to 6 times more likely to engage in anal and oral sex than those that don't take such pledges and less likely to use protection. All of the studies and stats to support every statement I've made in this comment are contained in this post. (please forgive the sarcastic title). I guess it's hard to make any headway against an emotional religious based position, here it is anyway. Facts and rational thinking just can't win when pitted against emotion and supernatural beliefs. Facts DO get in the way of irrational arguments, I've noticed how your sister deletes my posts when there are too many uncomfortable facts. That practice is a hallmark of conservative bloggers, more comfortable in a bubble of denial. Unlike them,I don't ever delete comments and I don't shoot my mouth off with out backing it up with evidence.

CONNIE'S THOUGHTS FROM THE HEART said...

Oh, Rita, this was such a great post. So well written and expressed such truths.Thank you so much for taking the time to do it. connie from texas

The Localmalcontent said...

Truly, a well written and thoughtful post, JMom. Our American heritage and common history, exactly like every other nation on Earth, has had it's periods of shame, but as one of my favorite poems reminds, it's what you make of yourself, from what you've learned.
Americans today, I think, have become too much an 'instant gratification' society, and thinking that history only goes back as far as they can remember, like the Iraqi war, or Vietnam, and so they remember only the struggles which had no immediate pricetag for them, like a loss of liberty.

Thank you for adding the second regret, that of American Indians, in your list. While I have never read about it anywhere specifically, I've often pondered the impact which the civilized tribes of the East and Northeast had upon the Founding Fathers and the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia.
For it truly seems to me, that many liberties and freedoms clearly evident in tribal affairs, were unknown, were never experienced by the colonists, who were still subjects under European royalty.

America is far from perfect. And you are spot on with your assessment of abortion. What an abomination, what a sad, sad stain on our collective soul, that we allow it to happen.
The laws of the Bible, both Testaments, properly govern (or should!) sexuality; but we have allowed Hollywood to encourage all sorts of promiscuity, now to the point of the subject being casually taught in grade schools.
Have mercy upon us, Lord Jesus.

Abortion has become a "needful" thing to resolve the end result of neglecting our traditional, Christian values.

May I please point out here, JMom, that it was Democrats who fashioned the 3/5ths human solution for slaves. It was President Andrew Jackson, a Democrat, who initiated the Indian Removal. It is the Democratic party which adores abortion.

Whereas, once a Black man was only 60% human, the Indian betrayed by false treaty, again Americans turn to man's far from perfect laws to "make it right".
Abortion can never be acceptable.
Sorry this comment was so long...

Christopher Hamilton said...

I will say this over and over again. It doesn't matter what people were told about Obama before the election because people would still vote for him. If the news stated that he funded terrorists, he would have still been elected. It's sad.

gecko said...

Hi jm, sorry this is off topic,( I don't have an email addy for you), but have you checked Rogers blog, Radarsite recently? Pam

Jungle Mom said...

gecko, Thank you for the heads up, I did not know!

Jungle Mom said...

LMC, thank you for your comment. I too, have pondered the effect of the tribes upon our society. One thing I feel must have been inherited from the indian is the great love for our land.
Many people from other countries observe the heart felt American patriotism and can not comprehend it. I think we learned this love for our place and our people from the tribal mindset. We watched the Indians who were willing to die for their places and each other, against all odds and today it is part of the true American soul.

The best way to unite Americans is to attack one of us. Even the most unlikely compatriots will join against a common threat. The tribes did this over and over again.

MightyMom said...

here's a post you might be interested in

http://hancaquam.blogspot.com/2008/11/plato-was-right.html

Mrs. C said...

I don't know what the morally correct answer would be if we lived long ago. If the Americans did NOT make treaties with the Indians, the settlers and outer settlements would face slaughter. If they DID, they could violate the treaties and say well, that was a different government back then. Things have changed!

That's what we, the American people, get from our own government. Why should the Indians have expected it to act any differently toward them?

Ah. That's one thing that really bugs me about our government. Obama can come in, reverse everything that happened before by presidential fiat, and it's all legal.

Next time someone else takes office, the same thing might happen.

I do wonder what people will be thinking about us in 150 years or so. If there is an America later, or history is not all propaganda by then.

May the Lord bless you and keep ya! :]

Yekwana Man said...

William, I am truly amazed that your logic is so messed up and convoluted. I read your post about Fetus-Fetish and saw how you claimed that the fetus is human life but not a person. I guess you would have been in agreement with the 3/5 compromise keeping and legitimizing slavery fashioned by democrats. Plus since you say it is human life doesn't that mean it has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness guaranteed under the US Constitution?

Now let's get to your bogus reports about the failure of Abstinence. I read those articles and the amazing thing is that the author equated taking a pledge of abstinence as being equal to practicing abstinence. Only Mary the mother of Jesus can say that practicing abstinence didn't work for her. All "these" teens that got pregnant or got STD's were not practicing abstinence but were participating in sex acts. (Just like saying the pledge of Allegiance doesn't make you an American citizen, taking a purity pledge will not keep you pure.) DUH!
I also loved this one!!!! In one of the articles you linked it said that Abstinence promotes anal and oral sex. WHAT!!!! I guess we shouldn't blame the porn industry on pay TV, internet or video stores. We shouldn't blame parents who do not have honest discussions about sexual activities with their children. We shouldn't blame the teens who decide to partake in these acts in disregard of their purity pledge. Don't blame homosexuals who promote anal sex has normal instead of the disgusting perversion that it is. Let's blame the obvious culprit. The idea that we should only have sex with one partner after being joined in the covenant of marriage is the obvious choice to blame for unwanted pregnancies and STDs.

So lets get this straight. You say to teens, You are going to have sex anyway so use a condom, and if you get pregnant just kill the human live fetus because it isn't a person yet. Just like the black slaves in the 1800's were alive humans but not considered as persons like free people.

GOOD PLAN!!!
loose canon = situational ethics = loose cannon = death and destruction to those who are near.

Your logic is astounding! You say you are an educator. No wonder the American public school student performs so poorly on an international level

nanc said...

soooooooo, william - can i call you bill? where DID you get your nitwit diploma?

you're right about one thing - women will get abortions whether or not they're legal - why should we make it easier for them to commit murder?

and don't give me any of that "right to privacy" spiel - what rights do the unborn have? there are recordings of babies screaming in the womb while abortions are being performed.

CHRISTIANS DIDN'T vote for obama - no, not one.

Jungle Mom said...

William,
Your method of deriving the conclusion that Abstinence Ed. is a failure due to the fact that some of the teens do indeed engage in sex acts, could easily be turned on you. The same logic would also show that Sex Ed as presented in most schools is a total and complete failure because teens are obviously still engaging in unprotected sex in spite of being taught how to protect themselves. Else why all the STDs? Why all the unwanted teen pregnancies? Why all the abortions?
Your intolerance is deplorable and I can only hope you do not express your prejudices against Christians in this way in the class room!
I checked out your blog and must say after having read it, I feel even more profoundly the need to keep my children out of the public school system and loose canons as expressed by your hatred shown there.

Papa Frank said...

So, William, when are you going to bring evidence instead of leftist agenda? Let's apply your thinking to other things:

** People are going to cheat on their taxes and so let's show them how to do it right.

** People are going to rob banks and so let's not shut the safe.

** People are going to cheat on tests so let's just put the answers on the back side of the paper.

** People are going to commit voter fraud and so let's do away with voter registration.

** People are going to drop out of school and so let's not have classes.

As the husband of a public school teacher I am appalled at the idiocy you have shown here. You are a very poor example of logical thinking and a very good example of why people look down on public schools. Next time you comment here please try not to check your brain at the door and bring your leftist agenda instead.

Gayle said...

This is an exellent post, Rita! WOW! I couldn't agree with you more. Unlike William, I don't think you became either irrational or emotional. You told it the way you see it, and I see it the same exact way. Obviously William sees nothing wrong with keeping abortion legal. But I've seen too many women in my lifetime indulging in indiscriminate sex and using abortion as a means of birth control. It's insane!

Regarding William's comment about your sister deleting his comments, it's her blog and her right to do so. Obviously she doesn't like William. Get over it, William. Not everyone is going to like you.

What atheists don't understand is that God is intensely personal to us and we don't see Him as being "supernatural" at all. Sadly, they will probably never understand it.

This is an awesome post, Rita. Kudos!

Gayle said...

William teaches public school? Gads! No wonder home schooling is so popular!

nanc said...

j.m. - FINALLY! bush does something to perhaps redeem himself - something to get on our faces for!

Mustang said...

American history is simply a series of events that already happened, and its only value is to understand what happened, and why, so that we might avoid a repetition of horrid causes and effects. I personally feel no responsibility for slavery, for how white settlers treated Native Americans, or even for the regionalization that prompted the Civil War. Such things happened long before I was born. I will say that before we bemoan the slavery imposed on Africans, we ought to consider all facts surrounding these events. For example, we should acknowledge a far greater number of whites became slaves than Africans—and over a longer period. I contend that slavery continues today, but I don’t hear much complaining by so-called enlightened liberals.

I recall a discussion I once had with a philosopher, who argued that society only moves forward when people agree to cooperate. I think this is much like the chicken and the egg debate, because the opposite argument is that progress is only possible through conflict; conflict requires individuals to sit down and work out their differences, whenever possible. It isn’t always possible.

You may already have noted that William is one of those bohemians to whom no one has ever turned for moral direction. Moreover, you will never find a liberal who clings to any moral principle — and the explanation for this is that liberals do not have principles. For example, a liberal would rather watch his family murdered than to risk his own life defending them. A liberal would sooner pretend that Jim Crow Democrats did not perpetuate the slavery of African Americans, and ignore the fact that even today, the Democratic Party continues to foist economic slavery on American minorities. A liberal would rather sit back and pretend that 9/11 was our fault, rather than pursue a violent enemy and kill him before he can do any more damage to his country. In every case, it is impossible for me to take anything such people say or write seriously.

On the issue of abortion, then, it is easy to understand why William’s argument is irrational and confusing. He is unprincipled and immoral. But even this is beside the point. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land and there is nothing more to offer that will change stare decisis. It is interesting to note, however, that Roe v. Wade isn’t enough for liberals; they want to pursue infanticide almost up to the point of live birth.

Only immoral thinking can lead individuals to conclude that the rights of a mother must take precedence over the rights of a defenseless infant. At this point, I should note that an abortive mother had the right to refuse an intimate encounter at the beginning, and made an unwise decision. But allow me to place this one final argument on the table: if we allowed irresponsible mothers to abort their pregnancies at will, it is possible that we would have far fewer liberals in the world. William would not be an unprincipled slug, would not be a classical guitarist, and the predominantly God-fearing people in Tennessee would likely be much better off.

William said...

Again, I cite facts, stats, studies from medical journals, World Health Organization and what I get in return is a disdain for education and truth, emotional arguments and hate - Quoting from your commenters here:

"It is the Democratic party which adores abortion."

Again, I don't make up this stuff, I'm simply reporting the evidence. These are the types of things we learn to do when researching a doctoral dissertation. Yes, I agree, American kids are poorly educated. Just imagine where our schools would be today if we had invested a trillion dollars in education instead of killing, maiming, and torturing people in Iraq?

What I can tell you is that after 20 years of being a University professor, I have seen some of the most socially dysfunctional students come from conservative christian home schooled backgrounds. They are generally very bright and often talented kids, very good people but are often awkward and friendless misfits. I have one case right now where such a student is seeking counseling because he is so unable to cope with his fellow students. My "normal" students won't even clown around in front of him and feel they have to watch what they say around him. I had a similar student withdraw a few years ago with panic attacks. Just last week, I had another homeschooled kid tell me he didn't vote for Obama because Obama was sworn in to the Senate with his hand on the Koran. This type of ignorance exists because of living in the home schooled bubble, being indoctrinated by narrow-minded parents who don't promote a variety of views and philosophies or a comprehensive world-view. Instead they promote clones of their own limited views and restrict their kid's information to wingnut news sources like World Net Daily, et al. Such kids are not taught to think for themselves and don't learn to question dogma, think critically, and are stressed when arriving in the real world to find that reality is far different from the bubble they were raised in. Not true in all cases but in some, ignorance and lack of exposure has had some fairly dire results.

FJ said...

William,

You claim that abortions are less in countries where it is safe and legal, and that making abortion illegal does nothing to prevent it. It would appear that you base these conclusion based upon a study reported in the Lancet by the Guttmacher Institute and WHO.

As all of the numbers for illegal/ unsafe abortions are based upon estimates with fudge factors from 1.4 to 3.0 being applied to the data, and therefore questionable at best, it might behoove you moderate your claims. Especially since it was the Lancet that published a JHU estimated that America forces had killed over 100,000 Iraqi civilians in the initial invasion and was grossly erroneous (but they had the chutzpah to increase the numbers by a factor of x6 three years after the original erroneous study was published.

Jungle Mom said...

William,
You said,"These are the types of things we learn to do when researching a doctoral dissertation."
It seems you are in need of acknowledgment and acceptance. We applaud you for doing something so daring and difficult which you seem to think no one else here has accomplished.

h You would have us believe that some home schooled kids are not 'normal' where as all other students are. I suppose if I were in a class taught by someone who labeled me as 'socially dysfunctional' and others as 'normal' I might keep to myself as well.
And I suppose the home schooled kid you mention who was misinformed about Obama and the Koran was much worse than all the Obamabots who could not answer simple questions about him and his policies. (Not to mention you have left that same comment around the blogs for quite awhile and it is getting old now)
You purport home schooled, or children of Christians, as being clones who can not think on their own and yet you are so obviously a cookie cutter product of the liberal education in this nation. You regurgitate the party line and have no creative original thought.
Are some Christian children troubled or lacking in social skills? I am sure there are several. However, the vast majority of the troubled, violent, gang, promiscuous, drug addicted youth of today is much more rampant among the so called 'normal' children of a Godless society.

Jungle Mom said...

William, I also would appreciate it if you would remain on topic and not bring in more of your pet peeves which you hold against God and Christians.

The Hermit said...

Not long ago, I had to do a term paper for a college class in order to keep my credential. Wish I could have plagerized this. I'd have changed it a bit, but not much!

Who is that horrible William? You need to engage the twit filter.

FJ said...

As for the statement: "the reality is that those kids who take virginity pledges are 4 to 6 times more likely to engage in anal and oral sex than those that don't take such pledges and less likely to use protection. " doesn't account for the fact that these kids are typically 18 months older that the rest of the cohort when they begin to engage in sexual activity AND hadn't been asked to abstain from the activities in question. That they have engaged in these so-called riskier behaviours AND still managed to maintain a much lower STD infection rate "Almost 7 percent of the students who did not make a pledge were diagnosed with an STD, compared with 6.4 percent of the "inconsistent pledgers" and 4.6 percent of the "consistent pledgers." Bearman said those differences were not "statistically significant," although Robert Rector, who studies domestic policy issues at the conservative Heritage Institute, said he interpreted the data to mean that young people committed to the abstinence pledge were less likely to become infected." leading me to believe that either these kids are not participating in risky behaviours at NEARLY the same overall rate as their non-pledging cohorts Or it is possible that those acts being labelled as "risky" are NOT nearly as risky as the authors of the study would have us believe.

FJ said...

And you can see the bias in the study you quote when the researchers say there were not significant differences in STD rates, yet the non-pledgers had an STD rate 50% higher than consistent pledgers.

Kath said...

Hi! I just wanted to say that I wish we could have "Jungle Mom Minutes" on radio stations around the country during rush hour so more people could be exposed to what you have to say! More people need to "hear" you! Take care and God bless! (Still hope you'll write a book one day!)

William said...

someone who labeled me as 'socially dysfunctional' and others as 'normal' I might keep to myself as well.

I don't label students, I help to make them great artists and mature people. I have had several students who have completed Doctorates and are now enjoying wonderful careers.

yet you are so obviously a cookie cutter product of the liberal education in this nation.

I am sure there are several. However, the vast majority of the troubled, violent, gang, promiscuous, drug addicted youth of today is much more rampant among the so called 'normal' children of a Godless society.


I suppose your evidence for that statement is that I am educated and don't subscribe to your religion of politics so I must be wrong. Right? I'm sure that all evil in the world exists because they don't believe as you do or have the same politics as you do. Can you see the divisiveness of this ideology? Can you see how your beliefs do more to separate people than to bring them together?

Jungle Mom said...

William, what I see is a person who thinks he is very enlightened and opened minded , who accuses others of being hateful, who wants students to ask questions and challenge dogma...
unless they come to a different position then yours, which happens to be the approved belief system of the liberal left.
You do not even see that it is yourself who frequents blogs which you know hold different positions for the sole purpose of attempting to convince them of your view point which you clearly hold as the only correct one, and you who think only your your politic point of view is valid.
All in search of confirmation of your own superiority, a need to control and dominate which you try to project onto others, but so openly reveal as your own problem.
I never have felt compelled to go to the leftist blogs and leave inflammatory comments. What would be the point?I do not need others to agree with me to feel secure in my beliefs or my faith.
Why do you?

Jungle Mom said...

William, and again, I remind you, this post is about abortion and yet when confronted with real data that contradicts your statements, such as provided by FJ, you change the topic. I will now only post your comments if they pertain to the topic here.

Deanna said...

Here's the recipe for the Papa la Huancaina you asked for:

queso fresco 400 gramos
leche 1 taza
aji - 2 cucharaditas
galleta soda - 3
aceite - un chorrito
sal - al gusto

Put all in blender and blend til smooth. Add more milk til of good consistency. Pour over boiled, cooled, peeled and sliced potatoes that are sitting on a lettuce leaf. Adorn with black olives and hard boiled eggs.

Father Gregori said...

To Yekwana Man: Your response to William is right on, but I have been around long enough to know that no matter what argument or proofs are used against people like William fall upon deaf ears. Nothing you,Jungle Mom, I or anyone else says, makes much of a difference. Leftist liberals who believe in "free sex", abortion, homosexuality, euthanasia or any other immoral act do not want to hear the truth. The sorry fact of the matter is, that they have anesthetized their consciences to the point that the conscience is in a permanent coma. The public education system has done its job.

FJ said...

Here's a study that presents the conclusions from ten other studies describing the effectiveness of abstinence only programs. Of course, since they don't fit your "promiscuity is good" paradigm, feel free to continue to ignore them.

FJ said...

Sorry. Bad Link Above. Here's the link again.

Pam said...

For William -
Hon, as a "professor", don't you have some papers to grade or something!? I'm intrigued as to why you keep visiting my blog. I'm a middle aged mom who uses her blog for socializing! The reason I've been deleting your comments lately, rather than posting them, is because they are hateful and not necessary. You seem to hate Christians and seem miserable that we thrive. I blog for fun, not for debating. I know what I believe and nothing you leave in your comments will change my mind. I'm an avid reader and don't need you to educate me. Most things you leave links to, I've already read in one form or another.
Do you think I live in a cave or have my head buried in the sand? I get enough negativity throughout the day and prefer to not host it on my blog. I do love a healthy debate once in awhile, just not everytime I post an opinion on my blog.

William said...

FJ,
I give you info from medical journals and internationally accepted sources, you cite stuff form the "Heritage Foundation"... why not just cite stuff from the GW Bush policy page?

You are deluded if you think 100,000 deaths in Iraq is an exaggeration. (Of course denial is a hallmark of the new conservatism).

DOCUMENTED civilian deaths are at 97,231. Estimates are as high as one MILLION.

BTW, if you like to read conservative media, check out Town Hall today and find out how religion is killing your party.

Oh, and Midnight Musings... if your blog is about socializing, why do you disparage Obama as being "arrogant and cocky" ... then delete my comments in response? That is what I'm talking about. You would ever find me living in that kind of denial.

Jungle Mom said...

William,
It seems we are all a little bored of your repetitive blather. Obviously, no one here is listening to your missionary like spiel. If you feel compelled to preach your doctrine of anti- morality, you may as well take it else where. If we were interested we would all go read your blog.
As to the musician, I have only been here a few months and have not heard of him. I have had a few encounters with artist but no musicians yet.

FJ said...

Yes the "Lancet" is supposed to be a peer reviewed medical journal, but as the Iraq War Death estimate case shows, lately they've been in the tank for the liberal cause du juor. There have also been quite a few scandals involving fake research published in the Lancet recently.

You are deluded if you think 100,000 deaths in Iraq is an exaggeration.

That 100,000+ Iraqi deaths represented an initial estimate made by researchers at JHU and then published in the Lancet in early 2004 to cover the initial invasion. And even NOW, five years later, they can only document a total 97,000 deaths through 2008. And so 1 million is an obvious and even more ridiculous exaggeration off by at least an order of magnitude. And so I have to ask, what would this kind of data even be doing in a semi-legitimate medical journal if not to serve someone's political agenda?

Here's what Wikipedia says of the Lancet's latest 1 million dead estimate...The 95% confidence interval was 392,979 to 942,636. That means that the real number has a 95% chance of lying somewhere between the low number (390k) and the high (940k)... and the "spread"/fudge factor (550k) is as large or larger than the actual number is likely to be.

And the "average fudge factor" applied to the abortion numbers in the Guttmacher study was admitted to be 40% and ranged as high as 300% in countries like Bangladesh. They even fudged the official US illegal abortion figures by applying a 1.05 "fudge factor". That means that the authors of the abortion study didn't trust OFFICIAL US STATISTICS and had to even FUDGE those... after all, liberal Guttmacher Institute researchers are obviously much smarter than the "official" American medical establishment who would be biased in the "opposite" direction (*snicker-snicker*).

And to understand the bias even further, the original author's of the study were from the Guttmacher Institute which: has played a leading role in the movement for women's sexual and reproductive rights since the institute's inception in 1968, when it was founded as the "Center for Family Planning Program Development", a semiautonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

And the Guttmacher Institute also has a vested monetary interest and motive for skewing the data, for like many UN related NGO's, there has to be a problem to study or Guttmacher researchers don't get paid.

Sorry, but as Plato says, "There was a time when a man would believe a rock or an oak tree so long as it was telling the truth."

If you can't argue the data, then impugn the source, eh William? If religion is killing my party, then junk-science has destroyed the credibility of yours (especially Ted Turner's bought and paid for IPCC)

Jungle Mom said...

Lack of religion is what is killing my party.

Jungle Mom said...

William, sorry but once again your comment is off topic.
You do not understand that as a Christian my only responsibility is to share the gospel message. Then the listener uses his free will to beleive or not. If they are not interested, we move on to another.

Jungle Mom said...

William, The discussion is abortion. That's the topic. You start repeating yourself or bringing in new topics to try and distract the comment thread.
I am about to close this comment thread anyway as there is nothing new here and you only get upset.
We have all made up our minds here.

William said...

Exactly, a mind made up is closed. That's why dogma sucks

Jungle Mom said...

William, do you think you are open minded? Seriously?
The fact is there are absolutes. Right and wrong exist and neither you nor I have the authority to decided which is which.
Our Creator gave us a conscience and the very mind with which you choose to deny his existence. That is your free will.
I have a free will as well and after much contemplation, study, and prayer I choose to believe God and His word. You choose to close your mind to all that is sacred.

Good night William!

William said...

I would be happy to entertain any evidence you have to support your position. Dogma cancels out all learning, growth and open-mindedness.

Jungle Mom said...

William, 'Dogma cancels out all learning, growth and open-mindedness.'
It surely does! Feel free to read my archives if you are so open minded. But since your purpose here is to force your view on others, perhaps it's time for you to leave?

William said...

I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone. I present data and you can accept it or not. Attacking the messenger is a prime method of denial. Considering that forcing your view on others is your prime occupation, you aren't really in much of a position to talk.

Jungle Mom said...

William,
Did that make you feel better? I am sorry you feel the need to make others agree with you in spite of their personal beliefs.
Talk all you want, but I will never condone abortion nor immorality.
This comment thread is closed now.